PM 11:35:48-2000/3/2
>Big 兄
>你贊成因信稱義嗎?
>"信"是你個人"信"所以稱義,還是上帝替你"信"所以你稱義.
>請告訴我聖經是怎麼說的.
Good point.
Read Romans 1-6.
Though some think "信" of "因信稱義" was to be emphased,
I think it is influenced by the protest of Martin Luther.
I think "(稱)義" of "因信稱義" was to be emphased in the Romans.
It is about how we are justified through faith INTO CHRIST
ratherthan how we are justified through FAITH ALONE.
Of course, I do not ignore the importance of faith.
Since the issue of predestination and free will was raised here,
I have tried to find a passage to support the concept
"Man may freely decide to choose or accept the salvation of Jesus."
However, I have not found any.
Either is a statement for the opposite thought found.
(I do not like to make this statement here in public,
but I hope to learn more here
in order to change such a statement if it is wrong.)
I need a passage of a clear claim
that man may CAUSE his FAITH to happen
rather than that man may make his faith.
Or a passage to claim
that the Holy Spirit or God CHANGES someone's mind to BELIEVE.
So far you have not submitted one
that is clear enough for your position.
For instance,
your exegesis on Ephesians 2:8 was not quite correct.
In Greek text
it talks about the cause of personal salvation (cf. #1775).
The cause of salvation by faith in grace is the gift of God,
this is, the salvation is given by God,
or, the salvation is out of God.
There is nothing about the faith of salvation
but the salvation of faith.
In English (most of them) or Chinese (Ho-Ho-Ben) translation
it seems that the faith is given by God.
Then it will stand against your position.
>
>你舉了羅馬書7章的話.還請您解釋一下羅馬書第7章如何導出下面的理論.
>不只是羅馬書第7章有沒有與你的理論衝突,
>而是羅馬書第7章是否要傳達你以下的理論.
It is difficult
to explain a doctrine
with a chapter of Scripture.
>
>>the total depravity of all mankind.
Rom. 7:20 (or, 7:17-20)
>>All human beings are controlled
>>only by either sin or God.
Rom. 7:23-25
>>You do bad because of sin.
>>You do good because of God only.
(Rom. 7:25)
>>You never decide by yourself.
Rom. 7:23-25
>
>請您把全然敗壞定義一下吧.這樣我們才可以來看看是否是聖經要告訴我們的.
Man would not do or think any good (Gen. 6:21; Rom. 3:10-19)
without the help or interruption of God.
>
>>The passages you listed are the external visible result
>>of being controlled totally,
>
>我從那些經文中的上下文看不出你說的.這些經文是強調人要選擇正路,選擇真神.而不是你所說的只是外在可見的結果.
"Wish or will" is not euqal to "choose or decide".
"Do" is the sivible part of choice.
>若您說迦爾文的理論優於聖經,要用迦爾文的理論來看這些經文,那我就無法認同了.
>請想想經文要說什麼,而不是載著迦氏的眼鏡來看所有的經文.
>
>>and as a created human being
>>you are not allowed to ask
>>why God did not make you choose right,
>>but what you have done against God.
>
>We are allowed to ask God questions.
(Actually, ask the questions regarding His will and authority.
Maybe more correct
to ask those regarding our thanksgiving and disability.)
... except for some questions
like why Adam was not made as perfect all the time as You are,
or why You wants to choose the elect to be saved for Your glory.
For instance, God did not answer Job
about why the sufferings came to him a righteous man
but He told Job that He is the almighty God over all.
The mainstream thought of Calvin
is the sovereignty of God.
(Please separate Calvin from Calvinism.)
We may not know why and how
but we do know what
(or, we do know more of what it is about
than exact why and how it is possible to happen).
>We should not blame God for our own choice, because it is we who choose and it is we who are responsible for our own choice.
True,
this goes until God helps us to choose right.
>
>>You did nothing good before becoming a believer
>>even though some of them were the same things
>>that you do after being a believer
>>because you did not know God and did not do it for God.
>
>>You do something good after being a believer
>>though you still do something bad
>>because...
>>1. you have the free will when you are a believer,
>>2. God does not make you obedient but let you believe.
>Big 兄
>你贊成因信稱義嗎?
>"信"是你個人"信"所以稱義,還是上帝替你"信"所以你稱義.
>請告訴我聖經是怎麼說的.
Good point.
Read Romans 1-6.
Though some think "信" of "因信稱義" was to be emphased,
I think it is influenced by the protest of Martin Luther.
I think "(稱)義" of "因信稱義" was to be emphased in the Romans.
It is about how we are justified through faith INTO CHRIST
ratherthan how we are justified through FAITH ALONE.
Of course, I do not ignore the importance of faith.
Since the issue of predestination and free will was raised here,
I have tried to find a passage to support the concept
"Man may freely decide to choose or accept the salvation of Jesus."
However, I have not found any.
Either is a statement for the opposite thought found.
(I do not like to make this statement here in public,
but I hope to learn more here
in order to change such a statement if it is wrong.)
I need a passage of a clear claim
that man may CAUSE his FAITH to happen
rather than that man may make his faith.
Or a passage to claim
that the Holy Spirit or God CHANGES someone's mind to BELIEVE.
So far you have not submitted one
that is clear enough for your position.
For instance,
your exegesis on Ephesians 2:8 was not quite correct.
In Greek text
it talks about the cause of personal salvation (cf. #1775).
The cause of salvation by faith in grace is the gift of God,
this is, the salvation is given by God,
or, the salvation is out of God.
There is nothing about the faith of salvation
but the salvation of faith.
In English (most of them) or Chinese (Ho-Ho-Ben) translation
it seems that the faith is given by God.
Then it will stand against your position.
>
>你舉了羅馬書7章的話.還請您解釋一下羅馬書第7章如何導出下面的理論.
>不只是羅馬書第7章有沒有與你的理論衝突,
>而是羅馬書第7章是否要傳達你以下的理論.
It is difficult
to explain a doctrine
with a chapter of Scripture.
>
>>the total depravity of all mankind.
Rom. 7:20 (or, 7:17-20)
>>All human beings are controlled
>>only by either sin or God.
Rom. 7:23-25
>>You do bad because of sin.
>>You do good because of God only.
(Rom. 7:25)
>>You never decide by yourself.
Rom. 7:23-25
>
>請您把全然敗壞定義一下吧.這樣我們才可以來看看是否是聖經要告訴我們的.
Man would not do or think any good (Gen. 6:21; Rom. 3:10-19)
without the help or interruption of God.
>
>>The passages you listed are the external visible result
>>of being controlled totally,
>
>我從那些經文中的上下文看不出你說的.這些經文是強調人要選擇正路,選擇真神.而不是你所說的只是外在可見的結果.
"Wish or will" is not euqal to "choose or decide".
"Do" is the sivible part of choice.
>若您說迦爾文的理論優於聖經,要用迦爾文的理論來看這些經文,那我就無法認同了.
>請想想經文要說什麼,而不是載著迦氏的眼鏡來看所有的經文.
>
>>and as a created human being
>>you are not allowed to ask
>>why God did not make you choose right,
>>but what you have done against God.
>
>We are allowed to ask God questions.
(Actually, ask the questions regarding His will and authority.
Maybe more correct
to ask those regarding our thanksgiving and disability.)
... except for some questions
like why Adam was not made as perfect all the time as You are,
or why You wants to choose the elect to be saved for Your glory.
For instance, God did not answer Job
about why the sufferings came to him a righteous man
but He told Job that He is the almighty God over all.
The mainstream thought of Calvin
is the sovereignty of God.
(Please separate Calvin from Calvinism.)
We may not know why and how
but we do know what
(or, we do know more of what it is about
than exact why and how it is possible to happen).
>We should not blame God for our own choice, because it is we who choose and it is we who are responsible for our own choice.
True,
this goes until God helps us to choose right.
>
>>You did nothing good before becoming a believer
>>even though some of them were the same things
>>that you do after being a believer
>>because you did not know God and did not do it for God.
>
>>You do something good after being a believer
>>though you still do something bad
>>because...
>>1. you have the free will when you are a believer,
>>2. God does not make you obedient but let you believe.
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