AM 01:46:12-2000/3/4
>>Read Romans 1-6.
>>Though some think "信" of "因信稱義" was to be emphased,
>>I think it is influenced by the protest of Martin Luther.
>>I think "(稱)義" of "因信稱義" was to be emphased in the Romans.
>>It is about how we are justified through faith INTO CHRIST
>>ratherthan how we are justified through FAITH ALONE.
>>Of course, I do not ignore the importance of faith.
>
>想想保羅在講什麼?
A life after sanctification in Romans
The need to be justified in Romans 1-6
>保羅的對象是什麼?
Believers in Rome
>保羅想要處理的問題是什麼?
The Christian life in the way of obedience to the Lord
different from Judaism in Romans
The sin and justification in Romans 1-6
>稱義是重要,但更重要的是"信"
I mean the post-justified life
rather than justification.
The faith of "因信稱義" part was discussed in chapters 2-5 (even only 3-4).
The most part of Romans discussed the life and grace of believers,
and the "因信稱義" part was discussed in chapter 3-5, later 9, and middle 10.
"信" and "因信稱義" are not the main theme of Romans
but they are critical.
>
>>Since the issue of predestination and free will was raised here,
>
>我實在看不出保羅在這裏想要raise the issue of predestination and free will
Sorry, "here", I mean, is this discussion area of theology and Bible.
Besides, I do not think, either,
that Paul discussed predestination and free will in Romans.
I cited a Romans passage for total depravity.
>
>>I have tried to find a passage to support the concept
>>"Man may freely decide to choose or accept the salvation of Jesus."
>>However, I have not found any.
>
>請問保羅在此是否要鼓勵讀者信耶穌?
It seems apparent in the most part of NT,
and even in Romans.
>還是要告訴他的讀者,你會不會信不信耶穌,上帝都已經事先決定好了.你不能改變什麼?
1. The funny thing is the fact
that in NT the presdestination and election
are said to BELIEVERS only.
2. Regarding the sovereignty of God
it seems apparent in Rom. 9 and 11
(especially Rom. 11:25-29;
cf. Rev. 6:11; 7:4 if necessary).
>若上帝不給你信,你也沒辦法信.你不想信,上帝若要你信,你也非信不可.
>上帝或許有能力這樣作,(但上帝會這樣作在全世界每一個人身上嗎?)
There is no such a argument in the Bible.
>但這是這段經文要告訴我們的嗎?
"這段經文" is Rom. 1-6?
Anyway, the answer is no
because Romans was not to discuss presdetination.
There is a little bit of predestination in Romans 11
regarding the election of Israel
and the election within Israel.
>
>什麼是自由,你需要解釋一下,正如我曾回咬金,自由的定義是見人見智.
Freedom implies no being bound.
Man is expected to have freedom
out of the slavery of sin
in (or into) righteousness.
>
>>Either is a statement for the opposite thought found.
>>(I do not like to make this statement here in public,
>>but I hope to learn more here
>>in order to change such a statement if it is wrong.)
>
>>I need a passage of a clear claim
>>that man may CAUSE his FAITH to happen
>>rather than that man may make his faith.
>
>保羅沒有這樣清楚的說,因為這在當時不是問題.當時的問題是人得救是因為人的行為,還是因著人的信心.
人得救不是因為人的行為,是因為耶穌的行為;
..... (more in the next reply)
>保羅強調是人的信心.
>羅3:22 就是神的義，因信耶穌基督加給一切相信的人，並沒有分別。
>25 神設立耶穌作挽回祭，是憑著耶穌的血，藉著"人的信"，要顯明神的義；因為他用忍耐的心寬容人先時所犯的罪，
..... (see the next reply)
>
>但是你的問題重要嗎?我不知道,我看不出來它的重要性,也看不出來聖經想要討論它.你抱著這樣的問題,來看不是在討論這樣問題的經文.又試著從中得到答案.結果你當然找不到.或得到不是聖經想說的答案.
You got it.
What I want to tell you is
that regarding your attempt
you "是在討論這樣問題的經文.又試著從中得到答案.結果你當然找不到.或得到不是聖經想說的答案" because "我看不出來它的重要性,也看不出來聖經想要討論它".
For instance,
Should we discuss
what technolony made possible the incarnation of Jesus?
Not important?
The incarnation of Jesus might be fake
because it would be impossible,
and the why should we believe in Jesus.
>
>>Or a passage to claim
>>that the Holy Spirit or God CHANGES someone's mind to BELIEVE.
>
>>So far you have not submitted one
>>that is clear enough for your position.
>
>我已經舉了許多的經文了,希望你好好面對它,看它的上下文.它的中心信息.不要只是在想能否有什麼辦法來解釋它們,以至這些經文不會與迦氏的思想衝突.
So do you.
Please just tell me
how the one
who is bound under the power of sin
and tends to sin against God
could turn to God and resurrend.
Ok, God gave free will to man,
and so man might choose without God's influence (Gen 2:16-17),
but God did not promise no influence of sin and desire (Gen 3:1,6).
Now man is bound under the power of sin after the fall of Adam
(Rom 5:12; 6:18,20; cf. Rom 7:20,24),
that free will becomes the bound will.
>
>>For instance,
>>your exegesis on Ephesians 2:8 was not quite correct.
>
>>In Greek text
>>it talks about the cause of personal salvation (cf. #1775).
>>The cause of salvation by faith in grace is the gift of God,
>>this is, the salvation is given by God,
>>or, the salvation is out of God.
>
>>There is nothing about the faith of salvation
>>but the salvation of faith.
>
>請指出我那裏說錯,
Please do some homework.
Please see my posted messages #1775 and #1782.
>
>在以弗所書中,信心不像在羅馬書那樣是個很大的題目,以弗所書的對象是已經信主的外邦人,保羅的重點在於他們能得救是神的恩典,不是他們作了什麼好事.
>但雖然是如此,保羅仍然沒有把信心給省略掉.信心還是很重要的.
I said I do not ignore faith,
but you ignore my question.
The (mentioned) issue is
where the faith results from, free will or inspired will,
even though the faith will result in salvation.
>
>弗1:13 你們既聽見真理的道，就是那叫你們得救的福音，也信了基督，既然信他，就受了所應許的聖靈為印記。
>
>弗1:19 並知道他向我們這"信的人"所顯的能力是何等浩大
>弗3:12 "我們"因"信"耶穌，就在他裏面放膽無懼，篤信不疑的來到神面前。
>弗3:17 使基督因"你們的信"，住在你們心裏，叫你們的愛心有根有基，
>
>>In English (most of them) or Chinese (Ho-Ho-Ben) translation
>>it seems that the faith is given by God.
>>Then it will stand against your position.
>
>因為譯本有問題,我們才看原文.讓我們還是用原文來看吧.
In the case of reference to the original language text,
you may quote a wrong passage.
Eph. 2:8 is bout salvation and grace
instead of salvation and faith.
Eph 2:8 is irrelated to your position,
and even you may lose your position in Eph 2:8.
>
>>>你舉了羅馬書7章的話.還請您解釋一下羅馬書第7章如何導出下面的理論.
>>>不只是羅馬書第7章有沒有與你的理論衝突,
>>>而是羅馬書第7章是否要傳達你以下的理論.
>
>>It is difficult to explain a doctrine with a chapter of Scripture.
>
>>>>the total depravity of all mankind.
>
>>Rom. 7:20 (or, 7:17-20)
>
>保羅這裏(以及下面的經文)是指全世界每個個人嗎?
Yes, Rom 7:7 is the key verse.
>
>>>>All human beings are controlled
>>>>only by either sin or God.
>
>>Rom. 7:23-25
>
>>>>You do bad because of sin.
>>>>You do good because of God only.
>
>>(Rom. 7:25)
>
>>>>You never decide by yourself.
>>
>>Rom. 7:23-25
>>
>>>
>>>請您把全然敗壞定義一下吧.這樣我們才可以來看看是否是聖經要告訴我們的.
>
>>Man would not do or think any good (Gen. 6:21; Rom. 3:10-19)
>
>那麼挪亞呢?
The righteous (before God) is not equal the perfect (in deeds).
How about the King David, or the God man Moses?
>
>Rom 3:10-19是指全世界每一個個人嗎?
Yes.
>請問全世界每一個個人都殺人流血嗎?
No,
but some of them shed blood,
and some sin in different ways listed in Rom. 3:13-17.
>請看保羅引用的出處,看是指部份的人,還是全世界每個個人,
是全世界每個個人.
There are two questions:
1. who decide if the person is righteous.
You, myself, God, or someone else?
2. if the righteous never sin
(in their life or after justified).
How about Jesus' saying: none good but God (Matt. 19:17)
The structure of Rom. 3:10-18 accroding to 保羅引用的出處 is:
3:10-12 -- Introductory proposition
3:13-17 -- The examples of sin
3:18 -- Conclusion
>還有保羅在此的中心信息是什麼?再來看這裏保羅是要告訴你這種全然敗壞嗎?.
Yes.
Rom 3:19-20 following 3:10-18 concludes 3:10-18
and makes全然敗壞 clear (cf. Rom 2:13-15 if necessary).
>
>>without the help or interruption of God.
>
>我想我們都很贊成神的介入及幫助,
>但關鍵在於人會不會拒絕.
It is not the issue of if man can or will reject,
but if God allows man to reject.
....
>
>>>>The passages you listed are the external visible result
>>>>of being controlled totally,
>
>>>我從那些經文中的上下文看不出你說的.這些經文是強調人要選擇正路,選擇真神.而不是你所說的只是外在可見的結果.
>
>>"Wish or will" is not euqal to "choose or decide".
>>"Do" is the sivible part of choice.
>
>我舉的經文是"選擇",但你想說什麼呢?
>這些經文是強調人要選擇正路,選擇真神.你從上下文那裏看出來,這些經文要告訴我們說,這些決定只是外在的,可見的結果.
Man is allowed to choose.
Man is expected to choose right.
Man might be willing to choose right.
However, the truth is that man cannot choose right.
The passages you quoted are of the external visible results
because the fact is ignored
regarding fighting the sin within man and failing.
>
>我一直強調一件事,到底經文要說什麼.
Do you mean
that any certain word was said in the quoted passage
or that any certain meaning was expressed in that passage?
>>Read Romans 1-6.
>>Though some think "信" of "因信稱義" was to be emphased,
>>I think it is influenced by the protest of Martin Luther.
>>I think "(稱)義" of "因信稱義" was to be emphased in the Romans.
>>It is about how we are justified through faith INTO CHRIST
>>ratherthan how we are justified through FAITH ALONE.
>>Of course, I do not ignore the importance of faith.
>
>想想保羅在講什麼?
A life after sanctification in Romans
The need to be justified in Romans 1-6
>保羅的對象是什麼?
Believers in Rome
>保羅想要處理的問題是什麼?
The Christian life in the way of obedience to the Lord
different from Judaism in Romans
The sin and justification in Romans 1-6
>稱義是重要,但更重要的是"信"
I mean the post-justified life
rather than justification.
The faith of "因信稱義" part was discussed in chapters 2-5 (even only 3-4).
The most part of Romans discussed the life and grace of believers,
and the "因信稱義" part was discussed in chapter 3-5, later 9, and middle 10.
"信" and "因信稱義" are not the main theme of Romans
but they are critical.
>
>>Since the issue of predestination and free will was raised here,
>
>我實在看不出保羅在這裏想要raise the issue of predestination and free will
Sorry, "here", I mean, is this discussion area of theology and Bible.
Besides, I do not think, either,
that Paul discussed predestination and free will in Romans.
I cited a Romans passage for total depravity.
>
>>I have tried to find a passage to support the concept
>>"Man may freely decide to choose or accept the salvation of Jesus."
>>However, I have not found any.
>
>請問保羅在此是否要鼓勵讀者信耶穌?
It seems apparent in the most part of NT,
and even in Romans.
>還是要告訴他的讀者,你會不會信不信耶穌,上帝都已經事先決定好了.你不能改變什麼?
1. The funny thing is the fact
that in NT the presdestination and election
are said to BELIEVERS only.
2. Regarding the sovereignty of God
it seems apparent in Rom. 9 and 11
(especially Rom. 11:25-29;
cf. Rev. 6:11; 7:4 if necessary).
>若上帝不給你信,你也沒辦法信.你不想信,上帝若要你信,你也非信不可.
>上帝或許有能力這樣作,(但上帝會這樣作在全世界每一個人身上嗎?)
There is no such a argument in the Bible.
>但這是這段經文要告訴我們的嗎?
"這段經文" is Rom. 1-6?
Anyway, the answer is no
because Romans was not to discuss presdetination.
There is a little bit of predestination in Romans 11
regarding the election of Israel
and the election within Israel.
>
>什麼是自由,你需要解釋一下,正如我曾回咬金,自由的定義是見人見智.
Freedom implies no being bound.
Man is expected to have freedom
out of the slavery of sin
in (or into) righteousness.
>
>>Either is a statement for the opposite thought found.
>>(I do not like to make this statement here in public,
>>but I hope to learn more here
>>in order to change such a statement if it is wrong.)
>
>>I need a passage of a clear claim
>>that man may CAUSE his FAITH to happen
>>rather than that man may make his faith.
>
>保羅沒有這樣清楚的說,因為這在當時不是問題.當時的問題是人得救是因為人的行為,還是因著人的信心.
人得救不是因為人的行為,是因為耶穌的行為;
..... (more in the next reply)
>保羅強調是人的信心.
>羅3:22 就是神的義，因信耶穌基督加給一切相信的人，並沒有分別。
>25 神設立耶穌作挽回祭，是憑著耶穌的血，藉著"人的信"，要顯明神的義；因為他用忍耐的心寬容人先時所犯的罪，
..... (see the next reply)
>
>但是你的問題重要嗎?我不知道,我看不出來它的重要性,也看不出來聖經想要討論它.你抱著這樣的問題,來看不是在討論這樣問題的經文.又試著從中得到答案.結果你當然找不到.或得到不是聖經想說的答案.
You got it.
What I want to tell you is
that regarding your attempt
you "是在討論這樣問題的經文.又試著從中得到答案.結果你當然找不到.或得到不是聖經想說的答案" because "我看不出來它的重要性,也看不出來聖經想要討論它".
For instance,
Should we discuss
what technolony made possible the incarnation of Jesus?
Not important?
The incarnation of Jesus might be fake
because it would be impossible,
and the why should we believe in Jesus.
>
>>Or a passage to claim
>>that the Holy Spirit or God CHANGES someone's mind to BELIEVE.
>
>>So far you have not submitted one
>>that is clear enough for your position.
>
>我已經舉了許多的經文了,希望你好好面對它,看它的上下文.它的中心信息.不要只是在想能否有什麼辦法來解釋它們,以至這些經文不會與迦氏的思想衝突.
So do you.
Please just tell me
how the one
who is bound under the power of sin
and tends to sin against God
could turn to God and resurrend.
Ok, God gave free will to man,
and so man might choose without God's influence (Gen 2:16-17),
but God did not promise no influence of sin and desire (Gen 3:1,6).
Now man is bound under the power of sin after the fall of Adam
(Rom 5:12; 6:18,20; cf. Rom 7:20,24),
that free will becomes the bound will.
>
>>For instance,
>>your exegesis on Ephesians 2:8 was not quite correct.
>
>>In Greek text
>>it talks about the cause of personal salvation (cf. #1775).
>>The cause of salvation by faith in grace is the gift of God,
>>this is, the salvation is given by God,
>>or, the salvation is out of God.
>
>>There is nothing about the faith of salvation
>>but the salvation of faith.
>
>請指出我那裏說錯,
Please do some homework.
Please see my posted messages #1775 and #1782.
>
>在以弗所書中,信心不像在羅馬書那樣是個很大的題目,以弗所書的對象是已經信主的外邦人,保羅的重點在於他們能得救是神的恩典,不是他們作了什麼好事.
>但雖然是如此,保羅仍然沒有把信心給省略掉.信心還是很重要的.
I said I do not ignore faith,
but you ignore my question.
The (mentioned) issue is
where the faith results from, free will or inspired will,
even though the faith will result in salvation.
>
>弗1:13 你們既聽見真理的道，就是那叫你們得救的福音，也信了基督，既然信他，就受了所應許的聖靈為印記。
>
>弗1:19 並知道他向我們這"信的人"所顯的能力是何等浩大
>弗3:12 "我們"因"信"耶穌，就在他裏面放膽無懼，篤信不疑的來到神面前。
>弗3:17 使基督因"你們的信"，住在你們心裏，叫你們的愛心有根有基，
>
>>In English (most of them) or Chinese (Ho-Ho-Ben) translation
>>it seems that the faith is given by God.
>>Then it will stand against your position.
>
>因為譯本有問題,我們才看原文.讓我們還是用原文來看吧.
In the case of reference to the original language text,
you may quote a wrong passage.
Eph. 2:8 is bout salvation and grace
instead of salvation and faith.
Eph 2:8 is irrelated to your position,
and even you may lose your position in Eph 2:8.
>
>>>你舉了羅馬書7章的話.還請您解釋一下羅馬書第7章如何導出下面的理論.
>>>不只是羅馬書第7章有沒有與你的理論衝突,
>>>而是羅馬書第7章是否要傳達你以下的理論.
>
>>It is difficult to explain a doctrine with a chapter of Scripture.
>
>>>>the total depravity of all mankind.
>
>>Rom. 7:20 (or, 7:17-20)
>
>保羅這裏(以及下面的經文)是指全世界每個個人嗎?
Yes, Rom 7:7 is the key verse.
>
>>>>All human beings are controlled
>>>>only by either sin or God.
>
>>Rom. 7:23-25
>
>>>>You do bad because of sin.
>>>>You do good because of God only.
>
>>(Rom. 7:25)
>
>>>>You never decide by yourself.
>>
>>Rom. 7:23-25
>>
>>>
>>>請您把全然敗壞定義一下吧.這樣我們才可以來看看是否是聖經要告訴我們的.
>
>>Man would not do or think any good (Gen. 6:21; Rom. 3:10-19)
>
>那麼挪亞呢?
The righteous (before God) is not equal the perfect (in deeds).
How about the King David, or the God man Moses?
>
>Rom 3:10-19是指全世界每一個個人嗎?
Yes.
>請問全世界每一個個人都殺人流血嗎?
No,
but some of them shed blood,
and some sin in different ways listed in Rom. 3:13-17.
>請看保羅引用的出處,看是指部份的人,還是全世界每個個人,
是全世界每個個人.
There are two questions:
1. who decide if the person is righteous.
You, myself, God, or someone else?
2. if the righteous never sin
(in their life or after justified).
How about Jesus' saying: none good but God (Matt. 19:17)
The structure of Rom. 3:10-18 accroding to 保羅引用的出處 is:
3:10-12 -- Introductory proposition
3:13-17 -- The examples of sin
3:18 -- Conclusion
>還有保羅在此的中心信息是什麼?再來看這裏保羅是要告訴你這種全然敗壞嗎?.
Yes.
Rom 3:19-20 following 3:10-18 concludes 3:10-18
and makes全然敗壞 clear (cf. Rom 2:13-15 if necessary).
>
>>without the help or interruption of God.
>
>我想我們都很贊成神的介入及幫助,
>但關鍵在於人會不會拒絕.
It is not the issue of if man can or will reject,
but if God allows man to reject.
....
>
>>>>The passages you listed are the external visible result
>>>>of being controlled totally,
>
>>>我從那些經文中的上下文看不出你說的.這些經文是強調人要選擇正路,選擇真神.而不是你所說的只是外在可見的結果.
>
>>"Wish or will" is not euqal to "choose or decide".
>>"Do" is the sivible part of choice.
>
>我舉的經文是"選擇",但你想說什麼呢?
>這些經文是強調人要選擇正路,選擇真神.你從上下文那裏看出來,這些經文要告訴我們說,這些決定只是外在的,可見的結果.
Man is allowed to choose.
Man is expected to choose right.
Man might be willing to choose right.
However, the truth is that man cannot choose right.
The passages you quoted are of the external visible results
because the fact is ignored
regarding fighting the sin within man and failing.
>
>我一直強調一件事,到底經文要說什麼.
Do you mean
that any certain word was said in the quoted passage
or that any certain meaning was expressed in that passage?
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